Episode 6 - Burnout in Caring Professions: A Naturopath and Nurse Perspective

Episode 6 - Burnout and Boundaries

In this episode we open up about burnout and the emotional weight that can come with caring professions.

Morgan shares more about her path into naturopathy, the reality of the study, how science-heavy the field actually is and how different it can be from the way it’s often perceived. She reflects on the responsibility that comes with supporting people’s health and what it’s like stepping into that role.

Mo talks about her experience in nursing and navigating new motherhood, as well as working in theatre where she witnesses parts of the human experience that most people never see. She reflects on how caring for others in that environment can be deeply meaningful, but also emotionally heavy at times.

We also touch on how professions like nursing and naturopathy often attract deeply empathetic people, those who feel things strongly, hold space for others and sometimes carry more than they realise.

A conversation about burnout in caring professions, the emotional weight that can come with it and how those experiences shape the way we move through the world.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to Mood Swings, the potty for the good, the messy, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Basically, it's just us, the two friends, a naturopath and a nurse, oversharing stories, swapping insights, and chatting all things womanhood, motherhood, and the beautiful chaos of life. So let's get comfy, pull yourself a cupper or a mug, and let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

How are you?

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Good uh, good, good, good. Um I don't understand how you get in that little pretzel. You do every time. I'm like, wow, she's done it again. I do a lot of yoga. I know you're so yoga up. I'm yoga up. I really am. I love yoga. I love yoga. Well, I wish I was. Do you know what? Okay, here's a secret about me. Okay. Every single fucking time I've done yoga, I've uncontrollably started crying. That that's so positive. That's it. Does that mean I have a lot of emotions that are being pushed down? Yeah. I think I've low key got a lot of like repressed emotions that I've never really let out. And so I think yoga's really triggering for me. We should go to like a yoga breathwork. No, we are we're going to. You know, this week when I was like saying to you, let's do it. Yeah. I was fucking meania.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yeah, no, they're so good. And you I think nearly everyone has repressed emotions, but definitely I would see you more so than other people because you are so outwardly the most positive person in the world. But we have a full range of emotions that obviously some of them were taught not to feel.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

And I remember I went to this breathwork um event on time, and they get to do breath work for like 40 minutes. Yeah. And it was like a possession. You can't really explain it to people until they've been to an event, but it like literally they have the people have to come to you and have to tell you to breathe through it because your body starts like you're crying, you're screaming, you're twitching because of all the stored emotion in your body.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

It's wild.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

So my mother-in-law went with a bunch of her girlfriends to a breathwork retreat, and they were having a really, really good time, but then they started hearing this because I didn't full on having an orgasm.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah, like yes, it happens. And then you obviously can't listen to what you're doing because she's having an orgasm. I I don't know. That's where I would joink out. No, it gets weird. Like people are doing weirder things than that. It does get weird. And I won't go into it now because that's a whole podcast episode. I think after we go to an event, we can come back and we can reflect on it together because then we both have gone through the same thing. Yeah, yeah. And then we can all like normalise some of the emotions that come up as well. Because I've never really spoken about it because I'm like, people are gonna think you're so weird.

SPEAKER_03 3:21

Well, yeah, I think some people still don't understand the concept of breath work and like what it actually is and the benefits between like behind it. And say with like somatic workouts and all of those things, and they're very intertwined. I know, I feel like people think that's like a realm of woo-woo. Yeah, and like to some degree, I think maybe it might be.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Definitely, but it's both, it's got the signal. That you do, honey. That you do open it up. Um, alright, let's crack on. That's our saying. Let's crack on, let's nut it out, let's was there on love? Let's dig dig deeper. Dig deeper.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Mood swings.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

Straight into mood swings. We're not fucking around today. We've got things to do, people to see, that we go, places to be. That we do. Um, so my mood swing will start off because here I am, negative Nancy again, back on the back on the Nagy train. I'm not really.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

I'm like, Morgan, don't Jimmy here let us speak. I was like, it's not negative.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

It's not negative, but it's like, you know, life throws you curveballs, and so I've had a curveball fully thrown at me, and um I'm just dealing with it as uh as best I can.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Best I can, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

So last night I went to work. I st I did a 2.15 till 10.45 shift.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

That's a big one.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Yeah, yeah. It's it's a biggie. And you know, all you want to do when you get home well when you finish work is go home. I go to my car and I notice this big puddle of like fluid, and I'm thinking to myself, that looks suspiciously like it's come from my car, and it looks like coolant because it has like a little bit of that oily looking colour, it's like a bit yellowy, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

I would have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

Like if I looked at looked at that at the bottom of my car, I'd like to know what it looks like, but I just I have no idea what to do underneath a bonnet. Yeah. Like I would flicker up. Oh and so anyway, so I've gone into my car and I'm sort of like I'm staring at the puddle because I can see the puddle like where I was in my car, I could see the puddle like all the way out, and then I sort of noticed at the corner of my eye, to the left of my windscreen wiper, this little note, and I'm like, oh fuck.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

I've done a dodgy part.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

Someone's written me a little love letter. I don't know who it was, but thank you, because you you helped stress me out, but you also sort of saved me because I was like, what do I do here? I wouldn't have I wouldn't have I would have always thought maybe something was going on, but I didn't you know it was like the confirmation I needed.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

So I read this letter and it says, Hey, just letting you know your car's been leaking coolant fluid all day long.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

I wouldn't know how they know it's been maybe the when they got there.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Well, we have security go through all of our levels, and they probably had noticed that. And so they've maybe, you know, been really kind and written me a note. But they were like, I would advise you to not drive this car, and I was like, brother, it's actually 10:45. I'm fucking driving this car. Everyone I know is currently sleeping, yeah, would be able to help me out or pick me up. I was like, I'm just gonna run the gauntlet. So I brought little Mazzy all the way back to House Lee.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Mind you, three zero minute drive. Three zero. Were you freaking out the whole way?

SPEAKER_03 6:56

I got to every fucking red light, and as I got further and further, I started hearing the the engine started sounding really angry. It was like, fuck you, fuck you all that you're all you were one. And I was just like, every time I'd hit a red light, I was like praying that I wasn't gonna, you know, conk it and then I would be up shit creek. But I managed to get home, and just before I got home turning on to my street, the red light for the coolant started flashing, and so it was like pretty much Mazzy was saying, Hey, you've exhausted me. Brother, you can't exhaust me anymore because I'm about to fucking blow.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Can you imagine your car blew up? Oh yes, yes, and I don't I don't I don't want to go there.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Because I've had such bad experiences with cars doing things like this. Yeah, I almost died on Gippy Road because my whole engine of my old car, a forward focus. Look, not a fan of forward focus is I'll never go into a forward focus. We don't want your sponsorship, but it it dropped out, my whole engine dropped out, and this fucking space it dropped out there. A little nut fell out and literally conked my whole engine out. And I was on Gimpy Road, and this semi-trailer was right behind me and had to swerve. I look, I'm discounting my blessings. I think I had a good omen that day. Yeah, and like my guardian angels were looking down at you because I I was almost I was almost minced meat. I was not most and same again. Thank you, angels, from above, because you got me home safely, and now I'm in my house. I've got a mobile mechanic on the way.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Yeah, so he'll be taking he'll be out there, yeah, telling me that there's something wrong. I wrapped up most cars at the front, bonnet up.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

Thank god my my husband was like, Oh, just do this, this, and this. And I'm I looked at him and I'm like, sweetie, I know absolutely nothing about what to do for these things. Like, I was hoping my husband would be.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

I was supposed to say, didn't he like help this morning? He did, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

He ended up helping me. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, we're just laughing. Like we were we're planning on getting a new car anyways.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Um which is kind of a positive. Like if things do say worst case scenario happens today, which hopefully doesn't, but if it does, it kind of just pushes you in the direction you were already going, maybe that little bit quicker.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Yeah. We always now we're so paranoid about the microphone. Microphone we're on. We're about to turn up. Um, but yeah, I I wasn't expecting to have to pay for a new car now. So I'm really hoping that we can just do like a couple hundred dollars, fix it, and maybe it's like the radiator or whatever, yeah. Some sort of easy leak. Yeah. And it's not like a bigger issue, like a crack in the engine. Yeah. But we shall see. Time will tell.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

And money. It's just one thing after another at the moment, isn't it? It's like you get like your head up and then you're like, like someone's like just dunk.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

But the beauty of life is that you can look at it two ways. You can think, oh, whoa is me, or you can go, well, fuck, I could get a new car out of this.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Exactly, exactly. I'll be swimming in debt, but yeah, I'll be fine. And if you think I always try and think about it in the way like this is not a unique problem to me. This is probably happening to a million people today. Well, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

People like I had to take my brother-in-law his car, his brakes broke.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

So was he driving and what like the brakes just felt working?

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Yeah, they weren't braking, and so he Yeah, that is my worst nightmare. Yeah, he had to pull over, he got torried here, and then I had to drive him all the way to our in like my in-laws so that they that he could borrow one of their cars. So it's just like happened in threes. Like my sister-in-law, she ran out of fuel. So I think I was the third one.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Okay, and that's good because then we can cut it clean then. Yeah, we're like, okay, done. So no more, no more bad juju. Okay, I love that. Good juju's coming our way. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

So, anyways, that's that.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

That's my mood swing. Oh well, hon. I'm only hoping positive things in two hours' time. Keep me updated. Thank you. What about you, Sissy? Well, I have been on the tiki-talkie train at the moment this week. I go through phases with TikTok. I'm either.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

You really love it or you hate it. Yeah. And it's the in-betweener.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

I'm not an in-between, and it's because sometimes I get carried away before bed watching it, and it's not the actual content, like the content I'm consuming I actually really like is like of my interest. Very weird, weird rabbit holes I go down on TikTok. It's the effect I feel on my mood the next day. It's I think that influx, because I'm such a like dopamine driven human. Yeah. I think it depletes me so much the night before that I genuinely wake up feeling already depleted. Which really? Yeah. And I can feel such a difference the nights I'm not watching it compared to the nights I do watch it. So obviously, I forget that it has this effect on me after I haven't been watching it for two to three weeks, and then I re-download it and I start this cycle all over again. Sorry to my clients that are listening, and I tell them not to watch TikTok before bed.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

It's like you're always on every treatment plan. Do not watch TikTok before bed. Don't listen to this.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Um, there has been one major positive at the moment. There's this trend going around TikTok at the moment where everyone is listening to this song, and I'll get the song up. It is called Ring My Bell by Anita Ward. I think it's from back in the maybe 70s, 80s.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Oh, she's a she's I love that song. An icon. Yeah, yeah. My mum. So she I didn't know when you were telling me about the song, I was like, I didn't know who it was, but then when you started playing it, I was like, I used to hear that when I was a little I was a little girl.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Well, honestly, when you watch these TikTok videos, I'll be laying in bed and I feel my hips just swing. It's like I'm just ready to start booking. And my mom's just saying to me that she can hear every night and every morning. I've been ending my my day with this song and then starting my morning. This is just me. Like you're the shorter moon.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

Oh my god, like the Lani shorter moves. You know when he does that, he's like so excited.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Okay, I'm gonna play just the main bit of it so everyone gets the vibe. Okay. I'm getting goose bumps. Well, it's a water.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Okay, so can you tell me that little fun fact?

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Yes. So supposedly, obviously this should be fact-checked, and I am only giving this for education purposes.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

I mean for um no education purposes for being in person.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah, whatever it is. Um, but supposedly this song is such a high frequency. Like, I don't know if you've heard of um frequency music when you listen to a certain vibration, it like helps clear stored emotions out in your body. This song holds such a high frequency that it's been banned from casinos because obviously in a casino they want to really suppress your or like keep you in a dense, like, scarcity, scarcity mindset, so you can't win. So, like, if you listen to this song, like all of a sudden you're like um operating out of abundance and love, and it can attract more wealth into your life, so you might have better chances of winning.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Oh my god, imagine if you listened to that song and then you went into the big cast.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

And then you just hit the jackpot.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Want to trial it?

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Yeah, I need to pay for a new house.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Well you know later.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Let's go. But so I'll leave Lani with his with his grandma.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah, we're going to the casino this afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Done.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

I've never been doing this.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

This is a little bit of a social experiment.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yeah. We're just doing it for you guys, really. Um, but it's like really caught on TikTok, and so many people are like uploading day one listening to this song, day two listening to this song, day three listening to this song. It's a full-on trend. I don't know if it's just the spiritual community, because that's kind of where my TikTok goes. Um, but people are genuinely saying, whether it's placebo or not, the effect it's having on their day is so positive. And I will say, I have been having like really good days, and things like since listening to this song, things that were affecting me aren't affecting me as much. Like I listen to this song and it kind of like I feel it move out of my body. It's really weird. And I it's uncontrollable. And like shaking it away. It's uncontrollable dancing, like my hips just start moving and then my shoulders just start moving, and then the foot starts tapping, and then I'm grooving popping.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Like Charlotte walked out. Charlotte walked out of her bedroom the other morning, and she's so monotone in the morning. And I was just at the table eating my breakfast, like, and she goes, Oh, we're grooving this morning. She was just it was very funny.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

You should just play it for her and see how it changes her her mood.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Her mood, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

Yeah, that's another little sound.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Actually, she has been happier the last three mornings. It's the song. Bing song, it's the song, it's gonna be so that is my mood swing for this week.

SPEAKER_03 16:45

Well, maybe that's your advice as well for burnout.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

100%.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

If you're feeling burnt out, 100%, listen.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Put on a read of water, she'll help you.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Sorry, I'm thirsty. No, sip away. You know what they say? Hydration is key. Hydration is key. I was feeling extra, extra therapy. Just so you guys know, Morgan carries around this big mofo bottle. It's like three liters worth, and she just drinks, drinks, drinks. And when before we start, I'm so totally outing in here, but before we start the episodes, she's like, okay, I'm gonna do my we It's like I have to do it before.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

She has to do a we before we do another past because I get so nervous and we won't get halfway through. And I'm like, we're gonna have to pause the podcast so I can go do a Wii.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

But let's not talk about it too much because as soon as we talk about it, I'll need to do it. It's like a it's a mental thing.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

It's a mental thing for right.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

So well, we've we've we've nutted out the we've nutted out our mood swings for the week.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

And I felt like we did pretty good there. Yeah, how we are actually touching on the world of burnout and boundaries, and I guess like more speaking from our own experiences, like experiences about burnout in the nursing world and the healthcare system, and how that like translates um also in my world and as a as a mum trying to navigate that space. And I guess like for you, it sort of would be similar. I guess like in your workplace, and just I think a lot of people don't realize that like with neuropathy, there's a lot of background work that happens.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

I don't think anyone has any concept of a naturopath's job, but I think they just think, yeah, you do the console and you call it a day. Like yeah, it's I would say it's just a huge burnout, right? Like, I don't think a lot of people last for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 18:43

Okay, well, while we're on it, why don't you tell me a little bit more why you think that there's a high prevalence of burnout for naturopaths?

SPEAKER_02 18:54

So interesting. When I first started studying neuropathy, my first degree was law. So I just assumed that studying neitropathy, one, it would be an easier degree because everyone thinks that lore is like the hardest degree. Two, I thought everyone would would surely be more anxious to become a lawyer than they would to become a naturopath. Oh my god, was I wrong? Not only is neitropathy the hardest thing I've ever studied in my entire life, it attracts an interesting kind of person because it attracts usually a female that has already gone through burnout that has become sick, and that the thing that has like the driver behind it is because of them going through an experience. Exactly. So it already draws in, like I would say, quite an emotional, um, sensitive, anxious person. Um, so you layer that on top of the degree itself already being so hard. Layer that with like a level of perfectionism that comes, I think, with the personality type as well. It is already starting to build a recipe for burnout, which is quite amusing for the outside person observing in, because I think a lot of people just see naturopaths as like these really calm, wholesome people, and as much as they are, it's taken them a lot of work to get there, and I think those boundaries become very flimsy around study because there's a huge expectation from us, massive, and then in the real world what we're kind of not taught is one uni is giving you the the absolute basics, like you really can't practice with what you learnt at uni. Yeah, you need to be like proactive. I listen to probably four hours of lectures a week plus podcasts, just the same as.

SPEAKER_03 21:00

We call lectures, are they like extended studies? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Yeah. So you can either pay for courses which most nature pass go and do. I'm unfortunately not in a financial position at the moment to be able to do that. I will be soon. I do all of my lectures through say we do a lot of functional testing, and lucky they'll get like all of the um experts in the industry, and they'll do like free uh webinars and they'll do free lectures, and you only have access to that if you um are a naturopath or a health professional that uses their um their testing. So for instance, I listen to like a lecture every week on one of the naturopaths that wrote our textbook at uni. Oh, cool. So it's like it is very full circle. Yeah, yeah. Um but obviously with that comes a massive level of burnout if you're not careful because not only are you carrying Or you're holding space for your clients, you're doing research for your clients because usually when people are coming to see a naturopath, things are starting to become pretty complex.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

And do you feel as well like a lot of people probably use naturopathy as their last line?

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Definitely. So by the time they've come to see a naturopath, they've been to doctors, they've been to specialists. So it's kind of our job as a naturopath to get all of their blood tests, all of their scans, any functional testing that we decide to do for them, put it all together, and then create a treatment plan for them that is going to be easy enough for them to stick to. Yeah. And actually see, you know, relatively quick enough results. Um so obviously, I've never spoken to a naturopath that doesn't love their job, but the complexity behind the scenes is huge, and I know that because everyone has such a caring personality, the emotional burden that most naturopaths carry is also huge because they're like, I just want to help this person so much that I'm going to put everything I have into this to make sure that they're getting the result that they want. Because they've gone to so many specialists already and they've gone to so many doctors and they've just been gasoline.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

They've probably already experienced themselves a bit of like burnout in their personal life.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

And they're like trying to gasp for air and more their life, like you're their lifeline. Exactly. You're the support that they're trying to hold on to, and I guess that that probably puts so much pressure on you because you want you really see the whole picture, and I and I knowing you, you're such an empath when it comes to that stuff because you've also gone through such lived experiences in this space that you probably carry a lot of that on yourself. Always, yeah. Is there a way that you help to like decompress and decompartmentalize when it comes to these things? Because I know it's so hard sometimes to like leave your clients' emotions at clinic. Sometimes, like, even for us as nurses, like we can't help it. We carry it, we carry on the patient's story that we have because it's it's relatable to us or it's in some context affected us in some way in our life. But is there strategies you use to try and help keep you at a at a at a level state where you're not finding yourself sort of creeping into that burnout state?

SPEAKER_02 24:52

I think I'm learning. I don't think I've figured it out yet, to be honest. With seeing clients, obviously I've only been an naturopath now for a year and a half. Um so I'm still learning. I think I always give myself a lot of grace and say that you are doing everything in your power. Like there's you are literally, you could not be doing more, and I think that's always a good reminder for me. But I remember them teaching us at uni that like most healthcare professionals will hit a time in their life where they have to take a step back because you can't give from an empty cup. No, you can only be your best practitioner self if your cup is full as well. And I think in that regard, back to the basics, like when we're talking about a few podcast episodes ago about self-care, my main things are just making sure I eat three main meals a day and exercising every day. Because I know if I don't do that, I will crumble.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

So they're my pillars. And then in a professional sense, knowing that I'm doing all the professional development that I need to provide them with the appropriate help so that I know after the consult, I'm like, okay, you did do a really good job, like you know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. Don't let that kind of imposter syndrome sneak in. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

I guess as well for you, particularly, like naturopaths work in a bit of isolation, like you don't have a team to sort of um soundboard on. You have people and resources that you can go to, but you're ultimately by yeah, by yourself, you're the clinical decision maker when it comes to the pathway of treatment for your client. Yes. So I guess as well, that also must have an extra layer of like crazy, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah, it's wild. I'm so lucky I have two best friends from uni that if I really needed help, I could call them and they would drop drop the everything at the click of my fingers. I didn't get the terminology then. It's like I thought you were gonna say at the click of my hat. Um, so I do have a support system, but obviously I don't want to be calling them for like I get a new complex case. I don't want to be calling them every single time asking for their opinion. Like it's my responsibility. I'm a sole practitioner. Um, but I think yeah, the naturopath world is very interesting. I'm excited to see where it goes, and I hope that it becomes a little bit more of a community-focused industry. Yeah, you'd be surprised there's actually a lot of like um talking about working in isolation. There's actually a lot of um what's the word? Gatekeep gatekeeping of information, which I could not believe when I first I just couldn't believe it. I was like, what do you mean you're not going to share?

SPEAKER_03 27:56

Do you think that's because your model of like the framework that your model of care works in, like you don't see several naturopaths, you usually see one.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Whereas, like, you know, with doctors, you've got specialists who work in the field, and like even if you've got, say, for example, you're very involved in reproductive health, yeah. Um, you know, uh what's that? What's our bits? Yeah, vague reproductive health.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Vagina vagina.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

So I'm brain fighting. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Mainly, yeah, reproductive.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

Like someone else might be more directed on like gastrointestinal and so you you do have your niches. Yeah, but most naturopaths will niche, but you still like go for broad spectrum, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Well, it's interesting. We all struggled with this when we first graduated because we were kind of taught to put us in a marketing sense to niche because people will Google if they're having period problems, they're gonna Google female repro naturopath. Yeah, but as we know, and as you know, because you're a very holistic person, when someone comes to me with reproductive issues, I'm probably gonna ask you to do a gut test. Like, there's no naturopath out there that you come to them with this particular issue where they're not gonna just solely focus on that. Yeah, yeah, it's just like more the clientele you'll start to see, so you get the tools in your toolbox. Um, like you become more comfortable with the terminology and the kind of clientele that you'll see, and yeah, um, all of that stuff. But like any naturopath could see anyone, really. Like a child could go to any naturopath, a man could go to every naturopath. Yeah. I call myself a female health women's health naturopath, but I see plenty of men. You know what I mean? So it's like I actually think in that regard a lot of it is to do more with the marketing side of things.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

Did you in your studies that they ever like um push uh the importance of being able to manage the load of the emotional load and how to utilize external sources to decompartmentalize or like for nurses, we got that was we had to do an assignment on it. Yeah. We had to do an assignment on burnout. I remember so that's so good. Yeah, well we did in my final year of nursing, I had to do a I think it was like a 10-page essay on the prevalence of burnout in new grads and like how we can help to decrease that uh, you know, for ourselves and what we what what what tools and how we can help to um not take on so much of that burden. And that's amazing. I was talking to one of my work colleagues last night about it actually, because I was like, I'm actually really interested to see like the statistics because I know that it's it's it's just been increasing, increasing, increasing, increasing since you know 2019 when the World Health Organization called it a like a a burnout phenomenon across the the world, but yeah, we I think all of us in nursing had to do some sort of like essay assignment on burnout, and I think what you'd find that nursing and neuropathy would attract that same kind of person, like you're not going into nursing or neuropathy for yourself at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

No, you want to help people, and I think that's where a lot of the burnout comes from because it's like you are just like almost at times neglecting yourself because you just have this burning desire in your deep down that you're like, I just want to help people and take away their suffering, yeah. And I think like especially in nursing, especially in neutrophy, that's where the burnout is a massive risk.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Yeah, well, exactly. And I think as well, um burnout is a spectrum for me personally. I don't think there's like one degree of burnout.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

No, I think there's it's a flimsy term, isn't it? It is hard to grasp because everyone has a different idea of it.

SPEAKER_03 32:37

Well, yeah, everyone's definition of what burnout looks like is very different, but I think as a construct, burnout is you know when you are physically, mentally, and emotionally continually burning the wick. But then your wick and the candle is empty, but you're still trying to burn it. Yeah, and you can't burn it anymore. There's nothing left to give. Yeah. And especially in in the healthcare industry, and it's only sort of getting worse, is there's a shortage of staff, we are getting like sicker patients. People who are coming in are much younger when they get, you know, horrible diagnosis and outcomes, and it's heartbreaking to see. And you also then sort of you're you're trying to support your workforce around you because you can see everyone is is is in it, is going through it. And sometimes I think for me especially, I am someone who tries to remain so positive. Yeah. Um, and I'm not someone who's like, I wouldn't say I'm toxic positivity. I just think I'm like, look, yes, it's fucking it is a hard job. We've we've all committed to a hard job, it's not an easy task. Caring for people is hard because it doesn't matter who they are, how lovely or horrible they are as a person, your job is to care for them, and at at the core of it, it's because you want to give something to someone that they can't give themselves right now, and that is care and love I'm gonna get emotional and support. And I think honestly, every single nurse I've come across has had a fucking heart of gold, yeah, and always, always at the forefront is like patient care and priority is like their patience, yeah. And I see so many of my beautiful nursing friends just get absolutely drilled at work, not because they they want to, but because like it's just the way the cookie crumbles, they somehow end up being we call the term shit magnet, which is really really it's a it's a nasty thing to say, I guess, but also it's how people sort of put themselves in this like weird humorous way to sort of ease the load of punch up. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 35:18

That's important, like it is important to chuck a little bit of humour in there because otherwise like if you know you're on a shift with the these people, you're like, oh, this could go one way.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

I'd be like, oh god. So let's strap it, let's drop it. And one of my girlfriends. She actually she's she's that much of a shit magnet. She's also someone who, if I ever needed her in the most dire situations, I would have absolutely no doubt in my mind that she would be the best person to have right beside me.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

And because she's probably learnt so many things because she's probably had all of these situations thrown at her.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

We started our grad together, and she's gone through some things that even nurses who have been in the profession for like 10 plus years have never even experienced yet. Like she's gone through a lot and she's very, very knowledgeable. And but she even said to me the other day, she's like, I actually, if there's Friday the 13th, if I'm rested on, I ask for that day off.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Full moons? Don't ask me to come in.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

No, she's like, because every time I'm on those shifts, yeah, shit hits the fan.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Either like they're short-staffed and they're scrambling, or you know, something happens with the patient, or there's just things that go fucking wrong. And so she she doesn't. She literally just like she's like, nah, I'm not doing it.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

What about they say I remember when my girlfriend's like she she works in theaters the same as you, and she said that supposedly the ward nurse nurses would always say on a full moon things would just go fucking whack, or like in the emergency department, things would just like it was when it rains, it pours.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Yeah, like and it's not just like one thing in isolation, it's like domino effect. So if something happens, like say like your bed blocked, or if there's a delay somewhere in the hospital, it affects it, sort of goes down the line, yeah, it trickles, and then so you're sort of navigating that space, but then also you then have you're faced with unexpected outcomes, like maybe someone's arresting, or you know, you need like there's a code being called because someone's come out of an anesthetic and they're not breathing, or you know, anything, and it's just like boom, all guns are blazing, like it's just everything's going to be.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

You have to be able to. Do you think it takes a certain person? Like, I guess my question to you is I am a freeze person in an emergency. Do you think that becoming a nurse, you either have to have that skill set or you learn it on the job?

SPEAKER_03 38:01

I think look, you have to you you quickly discover who you are in those emergent situations, whether you're someone that responds well to crisis management, or whether you're someone that probably fawns or f or flights and and needs to take a certain fawn fauna over here. And I think also it comes down to experience and being being in that situation at the time. The more exposure you get to these crisis events. I know that sounds, you know, not ideal, but the better you become at at being able to do that. Oh, 100% anything, yeah. And so I think you really can tell who does well and who doesn't. And often the people who do well will go in and and and be the ones that are at the forefront of of crisis management.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Because everyone has their skills. We don't want you don't want too many people in there because then it's too many cooks in a kitchen kind of art.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Totally. We have sometimes we have way too many chefs.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

And um it's just it becomes too hot. Too much, yeah. But also in saying that there is a line of command, like you you have your your team leader, your and your judy anethetist, whoever's on on the floor at the time, they usually are the ones that will be at the forefront of those situations, and then whoever is in that theatre or if they're in recovery, whoever's patient that is, or whoever is the primary carer in terms of nursing, will be the one that that leads that, and then sort of have support from the teen leaders and the numbs and stuff. But you know, there's been a lot of stuff recently that's happened in in the nursing space, and I see my girlfriends having to go through it, and and it's I just think you know we're very lucky because we get to have these things called hot debriefs, we're able to talk about it to to our colleagues because uh to be honest, a lot of our colleagues end up becoming our friends, end up becoming your best friends, of course. You trauma bond, and you go through life experiences together, you go through things that you probably would never ever experience with anyone else. And how do you explain that to someone who isn't in theatre? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

You know, you can't like I've never seen an open body before.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

Like what and and also as well, like especially for anesthetic nurses, it's so interesting. We've got a bunch of new grads in at the moment, and I think it's quite eye-opening. I think people don't realise the the role, and so initially when they see us doing things like oh well, that's quite confronting, but for us it's just our world, it's quite normal.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Yeah, like you said, the more you see it, the more it just becomes normal. Yeah, but we want it to be like as much as you said that might sound bad. No, because then like the public, that's how they gain trust in you guys, and when they go to the hospital, they feel safe and like they're in good hands because you have seen this over and over again, and when you're seeing an open body, it isn't shocking to you. It's like, no, I need to sort this out because that patient is my number one priority, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Um, but I guess honestly, it it takes time to to gain that confidence and get those skills. But I remember as a grad myself, a lot of us girls actually would cry a lot in our first year, or we'd have days where we would just be like so frustrated because we we would be like, Why aren't you guys responding the same way we are? Like, we want to know if this patient's okay, but because in our world we see these people for such a short amount of time and then they go to the ward, and then we don't know who that how they've gone, if they're okay, if you know they survived. We don't know any of that. How long have you been a nurse now? I've been a nurse for uh five years.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Yeah, wow. So you really are like you've gone to the I guess when we were talking about me before. Do you know what though? I still feel like a little baba, like a baby. Oh no, the way you speak.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

I'm not, I know that, but I think always in my mind, the same again with your your world, you're always learning and evolving. There's always something that you haven't yet discovered or that you need to regain.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

The world of science and health is just evolving by the second.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

Yeah, it's it's amazing, and and even like practices of what they used to do in anesthetics like five, ten years ago, it has changed.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Changed, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

So it's always a it's an ever-evolving space, and and I always try to humble myself and go like I'm not the beesies.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

A bit of humility would go a long way in these medical thinkers like a lot of people actually are, especially in theatres, like we know, um, that it's okay to reach out to other people and ask them for help. It's not because you don't have the skill or the knowledge, it's just working with extra hands makes light work. Yes. And you know, when when you've got uh a mummy who's having a baby for the first time, who's could could end up being very, very sick. You're not thinking about yourself, you're thinking about how can I make sure that this mum's safe.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

Yeah, you're welling up again, and I'm welling up again. Oh my god. So it's a heavy world, it is. It's also like I would not change it. I was and I always think that to myself, like with my career, I'm like it's made me a better person, yes, and I think you look at the world differently and you have a little bit more.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

compassion to people who don't have that like I'm so privileged in my role. I get to see some people in their most vulnerable states and I will never ever take that for granted. Yeah. But it makes you look at the world differently and you know you think sometimes we get so caught up in ourselves and our own boundaries and our our own mental state. And then I think work really sometimes humbles me and it reminds me that yeah like life can be shit sometimes but fuck you know it could be worse. Could be yeah or like at least I've got a roof over my head at least I've got people that love me. Some of these people come in and they've got nothing.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Yeah and then except for us. Yeah and I was going to say like and the beauty of being a nurse is having even though it's hard having the like literal ability to be right there with them and be able to help them because like you said what a privilege because not many people get that opportunity to help like you're in the front line like hands on you're literally helping millions of lives throughout your lifetime which is just so cool so so cool.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Yeah I'm very blessed it is it is a hard space sometimes and over the years I think it does wear a lot of people down and and you know I even I've I see it firsthand I mean there's a lot of people in in my area at the moment that are going through things personally as well like dealing with burnout in real time and so I think it's just like we're all doing the best we can it's like everyone wants a soft life but we're living in a hard economy. Yeah love it love that one love that one and I think you know it's not getting easier out there so we just need to really establish like these important boundaries and just remind the people around us that like fuck everyone's doing a good job.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

I everyone's doing the best they can can we can we just pause on that and then I actually want to go into how you prevent burnout nursing bouncing motherhood yeah um but can we just say can we just start giving everyone a big pat on the back because I actually don't think that we say to people you're doing a good job often enough like it always it's always coming with not criticism but I just think a little bit of recognition goes a long way like just saying to your friends you're doing a great job saying to your mum you're doing a great job saying to everyone you love like just reminding them because like you said like it can be really fucking tough sometimes and like if you're caught in your own head sometimes your head isn't the nicest place to be all it takes is a friend or family member saying you know what you actually are doing such a good job and I can see it. Yeah and yeah I think that it makes all the world of difference.

SPEAKER_03 47:00

Okay if you're listening to this currently right now I I encourage you to send the text to one of your girlfriends one of your family members boys colleagues anything yeah colleague anyone and just tell them something that you think they're doing a really good job at yeah you'll make their days you'll make their day yeah because like one it doesn't cost money and two it's probably the most selfless act you could do in that moment and you might not realize how much of an impact that makes to people to someone that you don't even know might need it.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Yeah exactly and I think everyone needs it to be honest. I think everyone there's not one person that doesn't need a little pat in the back sometimes or a big pat in the back. But I do before we wrap up I do want you to go into detail because obviously you are still a newish mum like Lani's only one yeah so learning the balance of not only working in quite a difficult career but also navigating the new world of motherhood you're obviously walking a tight rope of burnout a lot of the time because there's just so many hats to wear and so many things to do constantly.

SPEAKER_03 48:15

Yeah yeah definitely um I think like well I started going back to work when Lonnie was six months and I've only just I've like slowly increased increased increased my hours and now I'm I'm working 68 hours a fortnight so essentially eight hours less than full time which most nurses don't even work full time do they um yeah some do some don't okay yeah it it really depends I think some what some nurses will do is they'll work more hours but in a less amount of days. Yes like the 12 hour shift kind of yeah which in itself again carries a lot of pros and cons to it but um it's it's been a lot of navigating it's been a lot of sort of this is working this isn't working I'm struggling here I can't do this many hours in a day I miss my son it's a lot and and you know I've had to remind Cameron a few times like because sometimes look almost every time every single time if I'm doing grocery shops I probably forget something yeah no not probably I do oh yeah I do forget something and I'm like babe I'm doing the best I can I've come home from a shift a 10 hour shift I'm looking after trying to do nighttime routine and then also in that space give you a bit of attention give myself a bit of attention and then the you know do all of the other life admin things that are in our world um and so I I think being a mum and working in the nursing workforce especially with shift work it's quite difficult to navigate in that first year. Still learning I'm still learning I mean it's gonna be definitely a challenge I've changed my shifts now so I'm working a lot more in the afternoons and I'm doing night duties and that is only going to be temporary because there's just plans in place. Yeah but it sort of is just to try and balance and and have that little bit of space in between mum life and work life to just regulate and like simmer down because sometimes it's hard not to bring my emotions to work in terms of my personal life but then it's also it's hard not to bring some stuff home from work and I don't want that to seep into my personal world but compartmentalizing compartmentalizing women aren't good at it women aren't good at it men are better. I'm I I definitely am good with it in some senses in others I'm not like especially when it comes to you know things in the workplace that are very relatable to me in my current life yeah that's when it's hardest to but the way that I try and decompress is I'm such an emotional little being I'm yeah I feel everything so extremely deeply but I think it's really important to understand that and move through those emotions rather than hold them because well Well we'll find out at breath while exactly yeah they'll come out then I think sometimes I let go of the emotions but I don't let go of them enough. Yeah but I'll sometimes I'll cry in the car on the way home and then as soon as I get home I'm like I'm here like all attentions are new it's it's yeah it's a really weird world to navigate. Decompartmentalizing is a very hard thing to do because it takes very it takes a lot of finessing and fine tuning of that.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

And presence that's what I always try because I'm really bad at it.

SPEAKER_03 52:26

I've always been bad at it and to the point where I used to Google with my ex-boyfriend why can men do it better than females present it is change there's differences in our body well it's yeah because because we have a we we emotionally are driven yeah um he's like ah Lani's awake but yeah I I've that's why I really try and incorporate little things in my days that are a bit more ritualistic.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Yeah yeah rather than the extremes yeah but I think like um mindfulness and being present mindfulness that's the big one isn't it it's like as soon as you feel your brain ruminating or thinking about something in the past it's like you can't control that so why are you having having your people that you can offload to which is awesome but also being mindful that you're not emotionally dumping. Yeah like be careful you're not vampiring them. Like you know have you heard of like energy vampires I can do that do you know what I can do that to my mum my sister sometimes and I have to really pull myself up I'll storm in from a day's work and I'll be like and they're just looking at me like too much. I just have to say to them I'm sorry that was not fair I'm gonna go and journal that wasn't fair much journaling is a big thing. Yeah I thank you Mo for sharing that because I think getting an insight into the nursing world is something we don't usually get because it's kind of behind closed doors a little bit it it is it's quite deep.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

Yeah but yeah cool thank you all right well we don't actually have an episode for next week but we will tell you when we do it when we come up with it.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

Any ideas let us know we'd love to know what you would love us to ramble on about obviously you can tell we don't stay on track so whether we actually we don't stay on track whether we actually talk about it that's another thing.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

I've gotta go and get my chart now.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

Okay bye guys